Hmmm...  Haven't been using the old computer for a while and just read this whole thread in one hit.

Like the survey idea - it does arm us with some real facts and figures if we want to address higher authorities. 

A couple of points.  I think the idea of having comparative figures from other industries would be a useful yardstick to see exactly where we stand.  I can only speak for myself when I say I don't necessarily expect or want that we should be trying to put ourselves in exactly the same place as other fields' employees - for a start it is probably impractical, however the comparison may help our cause a little if we wanat to take the results from being more than just a survey.

On Evan's sample questions - I realise the final survey will be far more extensive, but I think it is important to note that most of us work or have worked or will work for multiple companies.  The first thing I thought of looking at the questions is - "How exactly do I answer this - I have a range of answers depending on my employer!".  Prob. like the majority of us it is not so easy to give a simple answer to "how much do you earn?" (for example) as this can fluctuate between months of depleting limited funds and relying on credit cards to months of "relatively" stable work on a reasonable wage.

Basically the survey needs to be developed to allow for the fact that most of us an't give one simple answer to many of the questions.  If we tried we would prob. give more subjective than real answers and end up with a misleading set of results.

On a related note regarding the earnings.  To all companies/organisations still paying employees by cheques - it is time to ditch these antiquated systems in favour of electronic banking.  As an employer you will save time and money, and for us employees on sporadic and low pay they often put us through imes of extreme difficuly waiting for up to a month, maybe more for a few days or a weeks work.  This is a prime example of employees needs and satisfaction not being addressed appropriately.

Finally, Johnsy mentioned Bindaree Outdoors.  I am currently working on contract full time and agree that most other employers could do worse than look at Bindarees treatment of staff.  They are the main reason I can't give one simple answer.  They view their staff as their most important resource.  This is shown through action and not just nice fuzzy words.  The staff support, recognition and rewards is better than with any other company I have worked with (and there have been quite a few!).  They are also doing this for the greater good as they try to raise the bar a little when it comes to standards for employees throughout the industry.

Enough rantings for now
Cheers
Mick

Thanks guys for all that info on an industry I am about to embrace next year. Having finished high school last year, I am taking a year off study for a variety of reasons. Next year its off to Bendigo to study my passion, outdoor ed and live uni life to the max!

My father has been involved in the outdoor industry (as a teacher) for 30 years or so and his feelings reflect a lot of what I have read here.

I however am going into this field hoping that I feel less resentment and more fulfilment in working and playing in the great outdoors and BELEIVE I can persuade others to enjoy and fall in love with adventure and getting lost. For me, thats what this job (more lifestyle I believe) will bring, and if I recieve less $$ well then thats more for someone else!

Bring it on!

See you out there, Nick

Nick,

I love your enthusiasm. I know there are a lot of cynics out there, but don't let them get to you. There are also a lot of people out there that have greatly benefitted and enjoyed their time in outdoor rec/ed (myself included). Generally speaking, I don't think being a guide/instructor in the outdoors makes a fabulous long term career (there are a few exceptions), but I do think it makes a great stepping stone. And that's not to say that without enthusiasm and effort we can't continue to improve the outdoor employment environment. I wish you all the very best for your future travels and adventures. Stay happy and healthy.  

Cheers,

SimonR

So what's happening? Are you all going to let this topic die an unnatural death or is someone reviewing/updating the survey? Please bring us up to speed so all of these efforts don't just fade away. I know there is a war on, the year is in full swing, the bills need paying, the lawns need mowing and your out of milk but come on lets shoot for some outcomes.

Hi all
just found this site and read all the connections. i think that the current and future hurdle will be dealing with the growing monkey on the back of outdoor instructors that is the National Outdoor Recreation Training schemes and coming accreditiation schemes. The only oldies i see around me are now becoming Registered trainers and charging an arm and leg to pass along skills they once would have shared willingly in a mentoring role. So look out we are creating a rod for our own back. the ideals of NOLS has been hijacked into an industry of training. With decreasing wages, pay, work for love attitude, what instructor will be able to afford to stay in the outdoors game. Not community groups - only the big corporate boys will survive. Good luck outdoor eders, on the union idea, where do i sign up?

Hi,

I'm writing this from the UK where I am working for a large Scottish Outdoor ED company.  I haven't worked back at home in Australia in this industry yet (I spent my time working as an Exec Recruiter there) but having worked in the industry in three major countries I can say the problem discussed here are not only Australian ones.  Quite often I've found that employers shove off pay concerns with "what are you complaining about you get food and bored".  This coupled with a mentality at a lot of centres that new hires need to prove themselves in the company before gaining any responsibility means quite often that talented staff get fed up and out of the company quickly.  It also means if you rock the boat too much then you won't be there in the next season.

Alot of what I see happening doesn't make sense from a business perspective.  Companies I've worked for see a massive turnover in staff some places as high as 80% between seasons.  This coupled with the induction training required is a serious operating cost. 

The other major point I notice Internationally is the lack of crossover in terms of qualifications.  I now hold qualifications in three continents, the US and Oz quals mean nothing in the UK and the UK ones mean nothing in the US or Canada.  This is even so petty as having to gain a new basic first aid qual everytime I hit a new country. There is only so many times CPR can remain interesting.

As instructors we share alot of the same concerns internationally.  If there is talk of a "union" (or maybe an association of professionals is a better term, there is nothing like the term union to send any HR people into their deepest defensive position) then maybe we should look to protect our interests not only here but abroad as well.  1000 members in Australia is nowhere near a force as 10000 worldwide. In terms of litigation this could provide a better situation in providing indemnity and accident insurance much like the British Mountaineering Council does for its members. 

A discussion like this is good to get it off the chest but if change is to happen then some action is needed.

Al

Its interesting how much time, energy and creative passions are being spent on the computer. I sit here on the other side of the world and as a full time professional outdoor educator of 13 years still going strong, have no bitterness or resentment of the industry either in Australia or abroad.

Everyone thinks they should be paid more, do less work, and be credited with changing the planet - get real!! We aren't that important! We are part in a small part of a childs devlopment. We offer different perspectives, alternate role models, challenges to the norm - maybe even challenge the "dominant paradigm"! But really we aren't that big in a childs development - 5, 10, 25 days a year??

I'm not advocating we lay down and die - but it is truly a fun way to make a living - it offers lifestyle choices no other profession does - takes us to places most people wouldn't dream of going - helps us sustain our outdoor life. And my solution to when I was feeling glum - GET OUT THERE AND ENJOY THE OUTDOORS! Do some adventures, love the land, challenge yourself, get scared, go crazy - remember what you love about being in the bush! Its about perspective!! GET SOME!

And maybe a time will come when you want more money, a bigger car or house, need to be with loved ones all the time - don't feel trapped - just accept that that's a lifestyle choice too. And maybe the two don't reconcile - it's about choice! Do you want to commute 1 - 2 hours through peak hour traffic to get to an office space you don't like to stare at computer screens to answer phones to deal with multi million dollar deals about shampoo/chewing gum/mining oil/building steel factories/real estate? Then you too can get paid $70G.

Me, I'm happy being a modestly paid outdoor educator with 4 months holiday a year, a love of life and adventures and a world to explore with my partner! The freedom to move from one company to the next, the choice to say NO!

Some things might be easier with more money - but a whole hell of a lot would be harder if we got it, because a lot of customers/clients wouldn't pay! Don't forget - Not everyone believes the way we do!!

Hi Johnsy, SimonR et al.

I agree SimonR you have done very well to get what you have from your survey.  It is a very admirable effort given the resources and the nature of the industry.  Sending out surveys to an employer and hoping they will distribute them and then return them to you isn't the best way to collect info of this type. However given your lack of resources and the unlikelihood of the participating companies providing you with the home addresses of their staff you probably didn't have too many options. 

People don't respond to IR surveys for a number of varying reasons - they don't think anything will change so they don't bother, they are happy with their lot and don't have anything to "complain" about, or they may be concerned that anything they say may be tracked back to them and used against them in some way.

I was interested by thewiz's post. He is obviously someone who has found his place in the industry and was very encouraging for those disgruntled folk to get out there and rediscover their love of the outdoors.  However saying if you don't like your current situation as an outdoor rec/ed worker get out and get a soul-less office job that pays $70G is a bit of a cop out.  As he should know people in the outdoor rec/ed industry don't usually have the skills and experiences that are directly transferrable to the corporate exec world.  Thewiz's post suggests if you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen.  I think what the majority of posters on this thread are saying is "We like the kitchen, we just want a pair of oven gloves and an apron!"  I don't expect anyone in the outdoor rec/ed industry gets into it for the cash, but that's not to say that the industry should treat them like workers in a sweatshop.  I don't think that a reasonable level of pay and workload are too much to expect?

What do you think? 
Cheers,
Evan