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TheDustyBin

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Re: Comes a Time
Reply #60 - May 30^th, 2003 at 12:46pm

thought i beta get in there and have my say. Everyone else has! Ive been trying to stay onto of this message board but it would take weeks to read all the replies

. I must say i have see all this and experience it. Some of the work that you are expected to do with the pay that you are given is attrochous.

Starting work-530am, setting up camp, making breakfast for clients/kids, running activities all day, making lunch, running more activities, making tea, running more activities, getting kids to bed, getting to bed yourself at maybe midnight on the quiet nights, and all for $140 a day. what a joke. Then once the camp has finished driving home and having to unpack all the gear! How can employees expect this to happen. But so many people do it. But for how long. I found out i can do it for about a week then that is enough. I guess this would be some of the better pay people would be receiving! Gota pick who you work for (if you have that choice). Just dont work for the dodgy ones.

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icanttakeit!

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Re: Comes a Time
Reply #61 - Jun 24^th, 2003 at 7:09pm

[color=LimeGreen][/color]

1600 views isnt a bad effort. Thought provoking topics. Great input, valuable opinions, I wonder how much of the industry is taking note of the what the people are stating.
Thank you Evan for such a simple but reasonable statement/request!
"I don't expect anyone in the outdoor rec/ed industry gets into it for the cash, but that's not to say that the industry should treat them like workers in a sweatshop. I don't think that a reasonable level of pay and workload are too much to expect?"
surely it isnt that much to ask even if it is over period of time that pay rises would be forthcoming.

such enthusiasm, devotion, commitment, passion, drive, trustworthy qualities do the majority of outdoor workers have that they are potentially setting themselves up for explotation.

ICANTTAKEIT! it sadens me! where is the values of some people!

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Johnsy

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Re: Comes a Time
Reply #62 - Jun 26^th, 2003 at 11:32am

Well “thewiz" there’s a few interesting comments in your post like… “Everyone thinks they should be paid more, do less work, and be credited with changing the planet” No not really, I think most people just want a “fair go”, “fair pay” and “fair recognition” for what they do, what qualifications we need to have, what compromises we make and the level of accountability, exposure and decision making that is necessary in our daily work. For example, how much money have you spent on gear this financial year? How much money and time have you spent on maintaining/upgrading your qualifications? How much money and time have you spent on recreation/skills building trips? Yes some of this money is tax deductible but if you expected the average employee in “normal street” to spend that amount of time and money on gear and skill development you would be hauled up in front of a Labour and Industry tribunal. It seems that some of the recent posts are more about knocking the last post or denigrating other people’s views, experiences and/or opinions. For some of those people it might be worthwhile going back to the first page of this topic and re-reading the real purpose of this discussion. On the other hand “ICANTTAKEIT” as usual has made accurate interpretations particularly in his statement “such enthusiasm, devotion, commitment, passion, drive, trustworthy qualities do the majority of outdoor workers have that they are potentially setting themselves up for exploitation”. There have been a number of occasions where my knowledge, skills and experience have been blatantly exploited by unscrupulous managers/employers for the very reasons “ICANTTAKEIT” has mentioned. However, I can assure you “ICANTTAKEIT” that many people in the industry are debating and discussing most of the issues raised in this post which in the long term may prove to be a worthy exercise. Change can only come about through education, knowledge, debate and analysis of the facts and/or status quo. We are so lucky that we have a medium like this message board to disseminate our collective views and opinions. As for FlipstickDan you know who I am and where I am and yes I would be happy to have a yarn about the industry with you any time.
Cheers,
Johnsy
Wink

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mrcontent

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Re: Comes a Time
Reply #63 - Aug 6^th, 2003 at 5:20pm

I HAVE THE SOLUTION!!!
We all volunteered for this industry. But if you want a regular wage min $24,000.00 per year a health and pension plan, potential for travel, rewards and promotion, working in a wide variety of outdoor environments the chance to lead an enthusiastic and well trained team with 6 weeks annual paid leave.
JOIN THE ARMY!!!
You volunteered, now toughen up you sooks.

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Conor AP Forums Full Member Offline Posts: 178	Re: Comes a Time Reply #64 - Aug 7^th, 2003 at 10:02am ..........raping and pillaging remote areas, killing innocent civillians, taking orders or being court-marshalled!! Where do I sign up? .........or maybe i'll be content being a sook.
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Johnsy

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Re: Comes a Time
Reply #65 - Aug 7^th, 2003 at 11:18am

Well mrcontent you really put your foot in it didn't you? I have been in the Army and I have been to war (Sarajevo/Bosnia 93) you don't know what tough is mate! Unless of course you have also been there, but judging from your comments and your inability to draw a distinction between Outdoor Education and the Armed Forces it wouldn't surprise me too find that you are too inexperienced to even comprehend what an Army really does. I think you should watch more TV instead of writing posts, I also think you should read Conor's post; he sums it up well for you.
Angry

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Conor AP Forums Full Member Offline Posts: 178	Re: Comes a Time Reply #66 - Aug 7^th, 2003 at 2:27pm Hey Johnsy, Could you email me your phone number.....I'd love to meet up for a paddle, maybe when Nat, Ben and Cam get back, maybe before if you can find the time. My email addy is conor_1984@hotmail.com Hope to hear from you. Conor
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mrcontent

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Re: Comes a Time
Reply #67 - Aug 7^th, 2003 at 2:28pm

Dear Johnsy
Thank you for your reply. I am concerned that with your background you can not draw a distinction between Outdoor Education and the Military as do they not both teach the principals of Leadership, how to work as a team, self confidance, manmanagment, surviving in the field, self disciplan and numerous other values. Or they did during my quarter century of service. I also find it hard to believe that you could agree with Conor as during my time I was not given instruction in Raping and Pillaging of any kind and as far as I know if you kill any one you will be held accountable and as an employee do you not take some form of orders.

My point is that the industry we work in is in need of repair. Rather than bitching about it. We need to come up with some options in relation to structure, pay, recognition and reward.
Johnsy has already raised these points.

We know what needs to be done. So how are we going to do it?

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Johnsy AP Forums Junior Member Offline "Dare To Care" Posts: 81 Northern NSW Gender:	Re: Comes a Time Reply #68 - Aug 8^th, 2003 at 7:11pm Hey Conor, Check your e-mail mate
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Johnsy

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Re: Comes a Time
Reply #69 - Aug 8^th, 2003 at 8:25pm

Dear mrcontent,
Don’t be concerned about my background or wether I can or can’t draw a distinction between Outdoor Education and the Military, I’m pretty sure I have that bit sorted. What you should be concerned about is that if you are teaching “self confidance, manmanagment, surviving in the field, self disciplan [sic]” the way you were taught in the army then God help your clients. Just in case you missed an important point during your service, military personal are trained for one purpose only and that is not to spread good will and peace among mankind. Not only the concepts but also the entire context of military training including self-confidence, management, field survival and self-discipline are based on the premise of kill or be killed, survive and win at any cost. I am not for one minute passing judgement on the Military or it’s personnel, I am however, trying to have you understand that outdoor education is at the opposite end of the this spectrum. Furthermore, if you bothered to read this post in its entirety you would be aware that we are coming up with some options by discussing recognition, pay, structure and reward and we are doing this by rational debate not by telling people they are sooks and to toughen up! Finally you said, “Johnsy has already raised these points” I am Johnsy! Is it time for your medication or mine?
PS Why don’t you come up with an answer to your own question “We know what needs to be done. So how are we going to do it?”

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mrcontent

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Re: Comes a Time
Reply #70 - Aug 8^th, 2003 at 9:27pm

Dear Johnsy
Firstly let me apologize most profusely for having my own opinion, as I did not realize this forum was a dictatorship. I also offer my sincere sympathy to you as it is obvious you have been living in a cave for the past years and have not kept abreast of the current military ethos and the magnificant work that the armed forces have been doing around the world in the areas of peacekeeping. I was a proud member of the Department of DEFENCE however with your concept of kill or be killed it is more likely you served with the German SS.

It is quite obvious with your response that you have all the answers thus I pity anyone who wishes to have any form of input that disagrees with you. It must be great to have all the answers and take none of the responsibility. My only hope is that the fence you are sitting on is not a picket one.

I'll be interested to check this message board in a few years because if this is the attitude people get it will be like a good 'soapy' and nothing will have changed.

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FlipStickDan

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Re: Comes a Time
Reply #71 - Aug 9^th, 2003 at 7:56pm

After re-reading most of this thread i have come to the conclusion that the only way factors such as structure, recognition, pay, conditions, rewards and the like will ever change in the Outdoor Education industry is if all of us involved jump on the same band wagon and start working TOGETHER as a team....i.e. a union.....

Ideally we would need 100% committment from 100% of the population of Outdoor Edders for any changes to work....otherwise the exploitation that 'ICANTTAKEIT' stated previously will continue to occur even if a very small minority of O/Edders don't stick up for the rights and conditions that we as any other occupation truly deserve.

Just this morning I was talking to a teacher of Outdoor Education at a Melbourne based secondary school who said that they had been looking for someone to employ on a trip to be held this term and this teacher blatantly stated that they were looking for a young, enthusiastic, possibly 1st or second year Uni or TAFE Outdoor Edder with minimal experience that they could pay very little to or get them to work for free and write off for 'experience'!! This teacher also stated that they would not employ myself because I have too much experience! and I cost too much! (i understand that most schools run on a fairly low budget for trips...but where do you draw the line? I got offered a job last month...$250....five days canoeing with year nines....i knocked it back...) Is this ridiculous or what???!!I am positive that this type of exploitation is happening everywhere and the new upcoming future employees in Outdoor Education need to be 'educated' to not tolerate this type of abuse from employers. Are people with me on this?

So a Union is the go I reckon....

What do other people think? Is this the only option to this travesty that is known as the Outdoor Education Industry?

Come on people...spill all of your wonderful and ingenious ideas to help get/keep the ball rolling....no use just talking about it... Grin

Due to myself being young and relatively naive to the ways of the world I have no idea on how to get/keep the ball rolling on such an issue....how about some of the more influential and experienced people offer some suggestions... Adventurepro...any ideas?
Grin

oh yeah...keep smiling people... lifes not that bad Shocked

could be shovelling fries at maccas... Roll Eyes

...no joy there...
anyway take it easy everyone
Dan Wink

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Miz (Guest)

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Re: Comes a Time
Reply #72 - Aug 10^th, 2003 at 12:27am

Hi Dan, Johnsy, others,

Just wanting to comment on the point about a school looking for a 1st yr student with minimal experience to give minimal pay to or write off as experience. I think OE teachers/co-ordinators that do this are operating with mimimal funding from their school and with instructor/student ratios imposed by the department that the school management is not willing to staff (eg 1:6). Often I believe it's a case of either operate outside guidelines, find cheap staff or not run the activity at all. I am not making excuses for teachers/co-ordinators that do this, but am acknowledging the underlying issues resulting in exploitation of O/Edders.

Moving on to a more personal OE delema: I am faced with the choice between 2 OE jobs. One I would prefer over the other as it offers more oppotunities and experience which I would not get other places, however it is only 0.80, even though the 8/10 weeks that I do work I am working 24-7. To me that is more than 1.0 (sacrificing time with family, friends), but with less pay. The delema: as a beginning teacher do I go for the less pay but with the more exciting field job, where I will develop my OE instructional abilities and work towards more advanced quals (which cost $$$), or do I settle for a cushy classrooom job with better pay and conditions, which I need no field instructonal quals for???? My heart is with the field job, but why must I be sacrificing pay and conditions to follow my heart?? I can see that that love of the job will only stretch so far and for so long. Will I end up disillusioned and disheartened and end up divorcing myself from my love affair with OE??

Miz

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FlipStickDan

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Re: Comes a Time
Reply #73 - Aug 11^th, 2003 at 6:14pm

Hey Miz,

Sounds like you have a bit of a decision to make...
I guess I was trying to make a couple of points by using the school employment and pay structures for casual employees issue as it is one of the many underlying issues that may be able to be addressed to the Dept of Education by an Outdoor Education Employees Union.

Due to the fact that there is no one to represent the wider body of Outdoor Educators who freelance to many organisations to put forth issues such as this one, the current rate of incidences of this type of exploitation will just continue to occur. Do you agree with me?

This issue goes not just for employment through schools but for other O/E operators as well. Also your 'personal' dilemma which a lot of people have probably faced in the past could also be addressed by the formation of a governing body for Outdoor Educators.

If people feel so strongly about the issues brought up by this forum is there any other option to forming a body such as a Union???

Is a Union the only option???

Are Outdoor Educators willing to show the same type of passion and enthusiasm that we normally show to our clients in getting what we truly deserve in regards to all of the issues brought up in this forum???

Dan

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Pmac

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Re: Comes a Time
Reply #74 - Aug 11^th, 2003 at 6:45pm

As a Third year university student I have to agree with "Flipstickdan" the level of exploitation occurring within the school system is atrocious. For example a friend of mine organised to do some work with a group (who shall remain nameless) and upon confirming the details of the trip was told that not only was he being asked not only to be ripped off by being paid very little but that he was in fact not going to be paid anything at all and charged $15 a day ($75 for the week) for accomodation and equipment (equipment which he was going to supply himself). This is about the most appalling attempt at exploitation I have wittnessed. It took this particular company a whole month to work up the courage to finally tell my mate about this cost and lack of payment after being previously led to believe that payment was forthcoming.

There are to many examples of this in the outdoor education industry and as someone who is currently undertaking study in the hopes of one day being able to make some sort of living out of this industry I think it is time we stood up for ourselves and do something about it. I know a union is not the ideal way to solve this problem due to the difficulties associated with setting this up and enforcing it's policies but hey we have to start somewhere. What do people think are fair payment rates (either daily, hourly or weekly) for outdoor educators. I myself have been paid between $45 a day and $230 a day and it is my opinion that given the extended time usually spent working outdoor ed jobs (10-12hrs plus a day) the upper end of this scale is not unreasonable.

Anyway I will be interested to read your thoughts.

Paul.

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