Conor, thanks for agreeing with my assertion - that being that nothing develops in isolation. However, my statement is nowhere near Tubalubs because there was no claim of awesomeness.
However, you are wrong. While the protocols, instruction methodology etc of the BCU etc were initially adopted as templates (much of it in the mid to late 70's though I am hazy about the exact dates), the Australian development of high quality skills, instructional techniques, safety (it wasn't called risk management at the time) and so on were driven by the dedication and passion of individuals, groups, clubs and associations over the next 20 or so years. Carbon copy? No. The people involved worked their butts off to create an Australian Outdoor Industry recognised in its own right for its high quality of skills and instructional techniques. And, those people were always involved in their chosen outdoor pursuit at a personal level in their own time: that was the only way to gain the skills and experience needed to be employed back then. There was no such thing as an 'internet warrior' back then.
There are too many people to name who pushed the Australian Outdoor Industry generally to the quality it reached before the TAFE's recognised the potential but amongst them would be: the Farrances and many other slalom paddlers who taught people to be high quality paddlers through the VBCE, Peter Mack who was a world class telemark racer and taught those skills through the ATA, Merv Trease and Ivan Trundle and myriad other passionate nordic skiers who developed the NCIS (until it was absorbed for political purposes into the APSIA and much of nordic ski instructional quality thereby lost in Aus), in climbing we had people who were at the cutting edge of first ascents and contributing directly to the CIA etc,  rafting skills were developed and 'pushed' during the heyday of commercial rafting in the 1980's because various companies such as AHE needed to train more guides. (It is a disservice to many people to only mention the above but the point has been made.)
All of that effort was passed directly into the TAFE system: it was as if somebody took a drug from twenty vials, drew it up into one syringe and mainlined it into a Diploma. To state that the people and groups in those vials were just a carbon copy of something developed elsewhere is insulting. To be aware of where you are going you have to be aware of history.
The TAFE outdoor industry was initially driven by bureaucrats aware of the bottom line (unlike the above mentioned groups and individuals) and is in danger of losing much of the skills it was handed - if it hasn't already done so. The recognition of the 'workplace trainer' qual is the most obvious example of this. I can a cook a bad plate of spag bog but because I have my workplace trainer does that mean I have a high cooking skill level or good teaching skills and should teach it at a cooking class? No.
Technology has made the outdoors less formidable only if you choose to use it, and only if you choose lesser adventures.
If you have decided there is 'no need for a level of instruction or skills anymore', do you just not bother until you have no skills at all? What level of skills is therefore passed on to the next group of students doing the Diploma? Does your assertion apply to risk management to which a high level of instruction should be applied? Are there still logs in a grade one river or don't we need the paddling skills to guide a group of students through the willows anymore?
The internet is a small world, but often the people within it think it captures all of history.
One last comment, you used the personal 'you' as if I claimed to have been personally involved in the development of Certificates and Associations. I made no such claim.

Hmm, yes that was a far fetched statement of mine which I will retract! haha. Quite silly of me!

But where have all the outdoor instructors gone? Seems that all the current outdoor staff have work with companies, and there are no extras about. There are some government projects currently in the pipes that will increase the number of Trainees, Cert IV and Diploma students entering training courses. Will this help if there is an extra 150 staff? Maybe, maybe not.

Companies are finalising Semester 1, 2011 staffing requirements I am guessing. If you don't get in soon, then the the 'left overs' will go where they can. But eventually, companies will have to scrap the 'bottom of the barrel' and employ anyone...

Hey Cradz, will you ever work in the Aus Outdoor Rec Game again? Come back!

Wally

I've already said my bit in another thread along these lines... But Mick your last line about "large company ...." Bahahaaaa!! That made me laugh:)

All I'll say is that I've actually found that staff will stick around for less money if they "feel the love" And feel recognized for their efforts (AKA Beer on friday etc). If it were all about the $ then well.... You're in the wrong game. Go and manage a Safeway store do similar hrs and get 80-120K.

Mick - when you back in action?

Ben

Interesting thread,
Can I take a different view - perhaps the actual numbers of new staff are drying up due to the increasing costs to do the Cert 4 / Diploma?
Look at the Swinburne Dip - $10878, plus $2000 up front (and then some?)
I have heard that Cairns Tafe have dropped their dip this year due to costs increases and Sunshine Coast Tafe completely dropped their Cert 4 - there is no longer a Cert 4 in SE Qld on offer.

The TAFE restructing into Uni style payment schedules is likely a cause of instructor numbers being down?  I'd expect that it would be difficult as a 18-20yo to invest 2 years training and expending large sums on a career pathway that doesn't cover the costs of the course you have done for perhaps 2-3 years later, given the low pay scales still prevelant for casual / new staff in the industry. 

And before everyone jumps in to say that pay rates are higher than "when I was a youngester", it still doesn't equate to other industries / professions.

Hi Ben,

I certainly get where you're coming from and know that it's certainly not money that will keep people hanging around.  I know of a few dysfunctional work environments where when a good quality staff member decides to leave, they throw money at them to get them to stay.  Often they do, but they're still not happy in their position and also know they hold power over their employer and keep pushing for more cash with the threat of leaving.

A few beers on a Friday night is good, but like you said it's just a gesture.  I think to resolve the issue of retention it will take a fresh approach and a total shift in culture (a paradigm shift if you wanna get wanky about it!!).  I'm not sure exactly what it is, but hope it will happen.

I haven't read the book, but imagine it is somewhat similar to the 'google' attitude towards human resource management, where they focus on getting staff's work/life balance sorted through flexi hours, a fun workplace, pd opportunities, etc.

It's a good area to look at and focus on, but given the demands (time, physical, etc) that outdoor rec/ed demands it will be a difficult thing.  I still think the industry needs to work on spreading the workload across the year, rather than the T1 & T4 overload.  Perhaps by charging 'peak' rates during these times or something similar to allow staff adequate rest between programs and work throughout the year.

Conor

"The other thing that has hit Vic is the post fire lull.  No concrete evidience but my theory is that a lot of freelance guides missed out on the 7 or 8 weeks of work in early 09 and were force to find other work or went overseas and have never returned to the industry.  There seems to be a large number of Vic freelance staff heading to NT - at least some of the Tafe students that I know are."

Rob; this statement I believe is especially true; I am a 07/08 graduate and I was working freelance just before I finished my degree and also just after; The fires hurt and definately made me look for something more stable; I had booked 6 weeks of work that did not happen, and at the end of April I had decided to make the move overseas.  I have been working overseas ever since; I now prefer finding contract based work for a full season rather than floating around several different organisations. 

I would much rather come back and work in the Australian industry, but it would need to be in a stable (ish) type role.  Only in those situations can you offer alot more PD to staff, PD is especially important, because most quals expire or need renewing after two years, so I would definately favour a company that would be able to provide that for me.

The other benefit I have found being overseas is that I can build up my experience in different countries, so when I do apply for more solid positions in Australia I have more of a chance of getting that.

The reality in this industry that we have to accept is that unless we are able to book people in for longer periods of time and provide more benefits, then the experienced staff will not be around.  The challenge then is for the managers to provide a positive work environment that makes the staff want to stay.  That is a challenge that is becoming increasingly difficult.

Cheers

Hmm,
Interesting that a large outdoor ed organisation has been unable to fill some of their senior positions recently.

You would think that these positions would be what old hands are looking for, a stable job, mostly 9-5, potential to get out and teach the next generation or pick the cream of the trips.

Then there is the kicker, advertised salary of $50-58k.  OB advertised a similar job last year $42k.  Seriously the industry needs to do better.  This salary is not enough to even support living in a small town. The responsibility involved is also enough to drive you crazy.  People in other industries are paid twice this to take this responsibility.

How can the industry expect to keep talent that it has invested years of experience and training in. There is no incentive in the industry for staff to invest in education and develop the industry.  University level education in the outdoor industry has been the domain of teachers and as such not many people have quals in business, OE, safety etc. Really TAFE is about skill development and is not a source of lifelong learning like university is. 

In my current job as a safety consultant I'm paid to read research literature to stay current and my team has just had a paper we have written accepted for publication, all on company time.  This is what you get from that university eduction, the ability to continue learning and develop your profession. This has to be supported by the organisations within the industry. We aren't talking about an industry gathering once a year to listen to academics that have lost touch with the industry talking about defining what outdoor education is.  The practitioners in the room are just there for the socialising as they have heard the same people talk about this all before.

There was no incentive for me to complete my masters while I was working in OE, the only incentive was what i could earn out of the industry.  I hung in there for a few years after finishing but the lure of more pay and the ability to live a lifestyle where I didn't have to worry about having enough money to go out for dinner or pay my rent was too much. I also faced that I had reached the top of the pay scale, without starting my own business and taking on a whole bunch of risk I was never gonna earn anymore.

My 10 yrs of experience is now gone from the industry. All the practice manuals, incident response plans, risk assessments that I have written and developed over the years, the experience and knowledge I have are no longer being used to make better systems that drive innovation and productivity in the industry.  That knowledge capital has been removed.  I'm not alone as this post clearly shows, the old hands move on, the new hands become the old hands and the industry stays the same.

For anyone that is sick of the industry and doesn't want to become a teacher, fireman or a paramedic but would like to do something that is hands on, is about helping people and involves science then send me a message. There are plenty of jobs going right now with lots of time off to play and big bucks. Big opportunities to work throughout the world. The downside is you will need to do 1 yr of uni to break in.  Then again $100k salary would make up for it.

Cheers

Al

Well said ART.